zerg90 analysis of the socal fires

when ntsb does a crash analysis - they often come up with several
major 'causes' - lets keep that in mind

zerg90 analysis of the socal fires

Palisades Fire

call was dispatched around 1030 am iirc - maybe some teens caused the
fire - the fire grew rapidly in a brushy area near homes

approx 6 helos responded on the first alarm - each maybe had 800
gallons of water onboard - lafd helos came from an earlier brush fire
on North Queen St so they arrived before any ground units

unknow where the la county aircraft came from - maybe 1 helo from
malibu and 1 helo from pacoima and 1 helo from further out - maybe all
3 came from pacoima - we might have one of their response times on the
V1 tape

super scoopers came from van nuys - not sure if there was 2 of them or
4 of them - iirc at least 1 super scooper acknowledged the call via
radio - maybe that was on a lafd radio channel - but they arrived
after the initial helos it seems

the first ground unit from lafd had a 10 minute run over 3 miles all
uphill - up 1000 feet - apparently there were ZERO ground units
prepositioned in that upper neighborhood which is maybe called
Palisades Highlands

la county ground units had runs of 5 to maybe 20 miles - so they were
much slower to respond than lafd ground units

lafd requested 40 extra engines in the first 10 minutes of the fire -
so mobilization speed was not a real issue - but already it was too
late apparently

the game at this point is to kill the fire - by any means possible -
there were many active hydrants around the homes - it was a modern
neighborhood with wide immaculate streets and immaculate homes - no
graffiti - no trash - definitely upper class - see google street views

efficient firefighting would require the IC to know where the flames
were located - which way the wind was blowing - the lay of the land -
the type of fuel and dryness

first arriving aircraft would try to drop water on the head of the
fire or at the most exposed residences - those decisions would be made
by the first arriving pilots or by the heloc (who was in Fire 4 / a
LAFD helo)

the super scoopers would try to drop while avoiding the helos and the
ground units - that would be coordinated by helco and/or by the first
arriving pilots - they do that all the time - it is rehearsed and SOP

coordination between aircraft and ground units can be hard - there is
just 1 a/g freq for lafd (154.83) and 1 a/g freq for la co fd (154.40)
- but if there is no one to talk to one the ground - then the channels
are useless essentially - and this happened at this fire

in fact Fire 4 can be heard calling on V1 looking for ground units -
he finally got thru to some BC who was still enroute to the scene

each fire pumper / engine has 500 gallons of water on board - hydrants
can supply 1k gpm to maybe 5k gpm - a ladder pipe can flow 1k gpm -
have not heard of any ladder pipes being used - the back yards can not
be seen from the street on Piedra Morada (St)

so how do you put out a fire if you cant see exactly where it is
located? how do you know which street to take to reach the fire? can
the helos send you some lats and longs? maybe - does the fire truck
have a GPS to enter the lats and longs from the helo? good question

when the smoke is billowing and the neighbors are screaming - its a
little late to be dealing with lats/longs/tom toms / gps etc

we never heard any helo giving any lats/longs - Fire 4 first mentioned
that the fire had already crossed Palisades Drive iirc - so that was
maybe a1/4 mile run or 1/2 mile run in the first 15 minutes of the
fire - ish

itw as avery dynamic high stress situation - their voices reflected
that - they knew what they were up against

too late to worry about reservoirs and smelt and fuel management and
emergency generators for water pumps at that point

note - possible los angeles water comes in via aqueduct from north to
reservoirs in Pacoima - then is sent to reservoirs and water tanks
throughout the city of Los Angeles

=========================

EATON FIRE

not sure where the fire started exactly - looked like it was under
high tension lines - maybe on the banks of a river / stream - maybe in
a Canyon - the fire started at night - the FD was very busy in the
area with wire down calls etc - not sure what the initial response was
- not sure where the initial units were sent - not sure if hand crews
and bulldozers were the initial attack units - not sure if there was
good coord between LA co FD and Pasadena FD and ANF

note - LA Co FD protects Altadena - Pasadena FD protects Pasadena -
ANF protects Angeles National Forest - NASA JPL FD might have been
nearby also - in other words - the initial dispatch maybe got units
from ANF + Pasadena FD + LA County FD + JPL FD - it was probably a
mutual threat zone and there were probably written mutual aid
agreements and SOPs in effect for all of the FDs - typically they have
full boundary drops in LA County - maybe not in every location - but
in many of them

if the fire was under high tension lines - maybe the FD could not get
close to the fire at all - and maybe it had spread to too large of an
area by the time the first responding units got into position

obviously something very bad happened because this 1 fire that started
as a small area (maybe 100 feet by 100 feet was first spotted)
managed to take out 6,000 homes

maybe when they got around to asking for 100 engines, they were told
that most of the units were at the Palisades Fire - so they would have
to wait for units to arrive from Sacramento or Las vegas - which is
wild - maybe Tijuana FD should have sent some engines

questions - what sparked the fire? was the power off? why was there
fuel under the electric tower? why was there fuel in the area? had any
retardant been applied to the area before the red flag? isnt there a
new retardant that can be applied once per year?

we will stop now - shalom